Curse

diabiosx · Aug 29, 2010, 03:16 PM // 15:16

Currently Everyone uses Fire eles in balanced, and have to thought to myself why they can't seem to believe that a earth ele is better.
1st few will wear a earth shield in the middle of match when they realize its not a fire. therefore the earth aoe will do more damage in a spike.
2nd stoning is a faster cast/recharge than rodgorts so it can even be spammed twice in a spike, and it can follow up a aoe better than rodgorts due to its 1second cast. So in terms of spike damage earth is more.
3rd since balanced is meant for holding halls, a earth is superior in king of the hills and capture points than fire.
4th You can not get linebacked when spiking with UG and Eruption since you will be camping in it essentially.
Also UG and Eruption will randomly shutdown frontlines due to chance of running into it when training some1.
5th it counters the biggest META game in HA, BBway, you see them 50% of the time so if you ever happen to see BBwayers in HoH you greatly increase your chance of winning.
6th you can hold longer in HoH, more consecs is always better. defense playstyle>offense playstyle in HoH
more to come

Fluffy Kittens · Aug 29, 2010, 03:55 PM // 15:55

It's pretty much the same if you play with earth or fire. Earth has a little more defense, fire has little more offense so I guess it's up to you which style u wanna play.

Killed u man · Aug 29, 2010, 03:58 PM // 15:58

Assuming you run 15 in the attribute on both characters, and assuming energy isn't an issue (25 from rodgorts opposed to 15 from Stoning)

Rodgorts would do 87.85 damage on a target with 78 armor (60 + 8 + 10) aswel as AoE damage, and stoning would do 91.41 on a target with 68 armor (60 + 8). So the single target difference is almost negatable, even if they're equiping fire shield. On top of that, Rodgorts causes burning for 3 seconds which translates to 42 armor ignoring damage.

Resulting in, even if they have a fire shield, Rodgorts doing 38 more damage than stoning, aswell as AoE damage.

An earth ele does have more utility, and in it's own way, it is better, but a fire ele still does more damage mainly due to the burning (42 damage per rodgorts, Searing and tenai's).

On top of that, the Hammer warrior's job isn't solely to keep people in fire aoe, it's also preventing people to weaponswap. As you probably know, you can't swap weaponsets while KD, and thus a decent hammer warrior should be able to catch people on 40/40 sets, at which the fire ele is undoubtingly better.

The UG utility is nice, however, but I don't know why you wouldn't wanna put foes and grasping on him, rather than your ranger, and then simply give your ranger MH + SoC. 15 earth > 9 earth.

I personally don't like the Ranger anyways, because you have to find a pug capable of rupting 1s spells (lulz), so whenever I play standard balanced, I usually swap the Ranger for a MoI or a UG ele with a similar bar to yours. (Rez instead of chruning, and foes + grasping instead of MH + SoC)

But in no way is an earth ele better than a fire ele. Even if they don't have earth shields (which is a likely condition, but still no guarantee), fire aoe does more raw damage, aswell as inflicts 42 armor ignoring damage. The earth's AoE secondary effect is debatable, but that's a discussion which would end nowhere...

Elektraaa · Aug 29, 2010, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Rodgorts is AOE, stoning isn't and the recharge isn't really quick enough to spam twice in a spike?

There's a higher chance of burning the enemy with the fire ele than you have of K/Ding them with the earth due to the nature of it's conditional punishment. Churning is 3 seconds vs its counter of 2 seconds casting.

Swings and roundabouts, certainly shouldn't completely rule the earth ele out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

I personally don't like the Ranger anyways, because you have to find a pug

No reason people should be needing pugs now, the game has been out for ages.

diabiosx · Aug 29, 2010, 04:48 PM // 16:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Assuming you run 15 in the attribute on both characters, and assuming energy isn't an issue (25 from rodgorts opposed to 15 from Stoning)

Rodgorts would do 87.85 damage on a target with 78 armor (60 + 8 + 10) aswel as AoE damage, and stoning would do 91.41 on a target with 68 armor (60 + 8). So the single target difference is almost negatable, even if they're equiping fire shield. On top of that, Rodgorts causes burning for 3 seconds which translates to 42 armor ignoring damage.

Resulting in, even if they have a fire shield, Rodgorts doing 38 more damage than stoning, aswell as AoE damage.

An earth ele does have more utility, and in it's own way, it is better, but a fire ele still does more damage mainly due to the burning (42 damage per rodgorts, Searing and tenai's).

On top of that, the Hammer warrior's job isn't solely to keep people in fire aoe, it's also preventing people to weaponswap. As you probably know, you can't swap weaponsets while KD, and thus a decent hammer warrior should be able to catch people on 40/40 sets, at which the fire ele is undoubtingly better.

The UG utility is nice, however, but I don't know why you wouldn't wanna put foes and grasping on him, rather than your ranger, and then simply give your ranger MH + SoC. 15 earth > 9 earth.

I personally don't like the Ranger anyways, because you have to find a pug capable of rupting 1s spells (lulz), so whenever I play standard balanced, I usually swap the Ranger for a MoI or a UG ele with a similar bar to yours. (Rez instead of chruning, and foes + grasping instead of MH + SoC)

But in no way is an earth ele better than a fire ele. Even if they don't have earth shields (which is a likely condition, but still no guarantee), fire aoe does more raw damage, aswell as inflicts 42 armor ignoring damage. The earth's AoE secondary effect is debatable, but that's a discussion which would end nowhere...

yay no flame on comment

When I played warrior with an earth ele, I didn't notice much difference in terms of killing power. The only time I notice a lack of power is when the Earth decides to play defensive with his aoe in 1v1 matches, which results in me screaming at them.The UG and eruption can counter BBsway entirely in HoH so if there is 2 BBway, its a auto win. the only reason why ranger doesnt have song in his bar is because he needs to rupt song, u cant really cast song and rupt at the same time. Plus ranger has better survival in relics snares HoH with his stance and armor. Again you are arguing that fire ele is better because of killing power, while it is true, earth ele has more than enough damage to kill fast as well. Also since there is 3way style in HoH, I can ensure you that you dont need fire to kill at all.
You argue that Rodgorts is AoE, I can argue that when you spike with earth, you can not get linbacked which in turns gives you more damage.

Masmar · Aug 29, 2010, 04:58 PM // 16:58

The only spell that has a recharge short enough to spam twice in a spike is a spell with no recharge.
Gl finding one of them

diabiosx · Aug 29, 2010, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masmar

The only spell that has a recharge short enough to spam twice in a spike is a spell with no recharge.
Gl finding one of them

40/40set gives you fast recharge. 2.5seconds interval is more than enough to do 2stonings since the nature of Balanced spike isnt about it being clean but rather shutdown in the inability for backline to heal.

Elektraaa · Aug 29, 2010, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by diabiosx

40/40set gives you fast recharge. 2.5seconds interval is more than enough to do 2stonings since the nature of Balanced spike isnt about it being clean but rather shutdown in the inability for backline to heal.

Depends how clean you want the spike I guess. 40/40 doesn't make the spike very clean and 2.5 seconds is obviously more than enough time to prot/heal. However, it could be that last 10 damage that needs to be done so to speak. So I can certainly see it would have advantages in that scenario.

Some of this depends on personal preference and you can always modify the bars a bit anyway. Personally I've always enjoyed aggressive play. For defensive players, an earth ele is certainly viable.

People dislike change in this game though, lol.

diabiosx · Aug 29, 2010, 07:52 PM // 19:52

If your goal is to hold for a long time then defense playstyle is better.

Rolain · Aug 30, 2010, 10:16 PM // 22:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masmar

The only spell that has a recharge short enough to spam twice in a spike is a spell with no recharge.
Gl finding one of them

4040 set Rodgorts followed up with glowing gaze or MB, gogo

Playing Is Srs Bsns · Aug 31, 2010, 12:21 PM // 12:21

Can punish enemy team(mid/backline) for balling with UG and Eruption...? Cool suggestion tho, cos A) BBSway is annoying B) everyone uses fire shield

superraptors · Sep 01, 2010, 10:51 AM // 10:51

Your gonna be relying on more clean spikes with stoning to get kills and balance is suppose to be more of pressure from aoe. Rodgorts owns stoning any day.

And earth skills do alot less damage if u wanna try stop a block or even blowing up the altar. Worst for halls actually tbh.
I mean in 2v1 scenario after u lost altar earth skills would RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO up warriors on the other team who are also trying to get the holding teams ghost and players on the altar.

Cant be stuffed doing the maths but in halls theres easily 8+ targets on the altar in koth matches savanah will give u like probably 1k more of damage thats enough to cause them team wipes which is obviously better defense.

diabiosx · Sep 01, 2010, 02:00 PM // 14:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by superraptors

Your gonna be relying on more clean spikes with stoning to get kills and balance is suppose to be more of pressure from aoe. Rodgorts owns stoning any day.
.

FYI poison spaming and 2warriors is pressure, again balanced is not clean spiking, no where in the posts did i say that. Stoning doesnt make the spike more clean, it gives more damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by superraptors

And earth skills do alot less damage if u wanna try stop a block or even blowing up the altar. Worst for halls actually tbh.
.

Blowing up the altar involves shutting down the hb infuser. 1SH ele is not enough to blow up altar without shutdown of the other teams monks. If the hbinfuser is shutdown Earth and fire are just as good at blowing up the altar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by superraptors

I mean in 2v1 scenario after u lost altar earth skills would RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO up warriors on the other team who are also trying to get the holding teams ghost and players on the altar.
.

If you assume that earth ele mess up the other team's warriors with UG and Eruption in king of the hills then I can tell you lack experience. Have you ever thought about only using churning earth and stoning? and if you reply saying that cant ever kill the other team, that again shows your lack of experience.

Quote:

Originally Posted by superraptors

Cant be stuffed doing the maths but in halls theres easily 8+ targets on the altar in koth matches savanah will give u like probably 1k more of damage thats enough to cause them team wipes which is obviously better defense.

no one balls that hard in koth. Balanced trying to wipe a team while holding=instant lose, unless when a team is half dead from losing control of koth(which then a earth ele is enough to kill that team as well).

And if you refer to the time when the entire 2team is trying to kill the ghost when your monks are dead, SH cant kill since theres 2monks backing up the 2-3frontlines. Also UG and eruption is better to defend against that situation anyways.

Killed u man · Sep 01, 2010, 02:20 PM // 14:20

Like established earlier:

Both have advantages and disadvantages. Fire does more damage, even when they have a fire shield on (as opposed to no earth shield for stoning) it still does more damage than earth. Earth has some major utility in the fact that during the 5 second of AoE, your party is immune to physicials. (Eruption and UG together is a good 15 seconds of immunity every 25)

shadowstactic · Sep 01, 2010, 07:42 PM // 19:42

Quote:

3rd since balanced is meant for holding halls, a earth is superior in king of the hills and capture points than fire.

You want to tell me, that a Savanna Heat on Altar on Koth or Capture Points does not Pwn?
Savanna Heat > UG imo

Fluffy Kittens · Sep 02, 2010, 09:03 AM // 09:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowstactic

You want to tell me, that a Savanna Heat on Altar on Koth or Capture Points does not Pwn?
Savanna Heat > UG imo

UG and eruption pwn a lot more bro I can see you're not very experienced player but that's ok. Just go test it and you'll see.

Killed u man · Sep 02, 2010, 01:33 PM // 13:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rezz Anna Nicole

UG and eruption pwn a lot more bro I can see you're not very experienced player but that's ok. Just go test it and you'll see.

Test:

Ghost does not have shield sets.

Test:

People on cap points don't always have fire shields. As a matter of fact, alot of the team will often have to swap to 40/40's to get more effective casts. (prot, HB, your SH, rit for weapon spells)

Test:

At 15 Fire Magic:
SH , Searing and Tenais and Rodgorts all added up would do a nice round 820 damage. On a person with 78 AL (60 with fire shield), this would result in 600 damage. Assuming one tenais will hit a second before your rodgorts, you will have 4 seconds of burning which will result in an extra 56 damage, bringing the total to 656 AoE damage.

At 15 Earth Magic:
UG, Eruption and Churning all added up would do 600 damage. On a person with 68 AL (once again assuming they don't have an earth shield), this would result in 522 damage. With no AoE follow up, unless you're willing to bring earthquake, this would result in 522 AoE damage.

So even when they have fire shields on, Fire AoE alone would be enough to kill someone (Avrage person has around 620 HP), whereas Earth AoE, on that same shield set, wouldn't.

On top of that, if you catch anyone on a 40/40 sets (which happens alot on cap points due to the sheer amount of people you can hit), Fire AoE will completely outclass Earth AoE.

Bottom line is: When you want to cap a shrine on cap points, killing them is more important than staying alive. Whereas if you want to hold a shrine, staying alive is more important than killing them. Added to this comes the fact that killing them, would be somewhat of a guarantee you'll stay alive too, as dead people won't kill you.

diabiosx · Sep 02, 2010, 01:58 PM // 13:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Test:

Ghost does not have shield sets.

Test:

People on cap points don't always have fire shields. As a matter of fact, alot of the team will often have to swap to 40/40's to get more effective casts. (prot, HB, your SH, rit for weapon spells)

Test:

At 15 Fire Magic:
SH , Searing and Tenais and Rodgorts all added up would do a nice round 820 damage. On a person with 78 AL (60 with fire shield), this would result in 600 damage. Assuming one tenais will hit a second before your rodgorts, you will have 4 seconds of burning which will result in an extra 56 damage, bringing the total to 656 AoE damage.

At 15 Earth Magic:
UG, Eruption and Churning all added up would do 600 damage. On a person with 68 AL (once again assuming they don't have an earth shield), this would result in 522 damage. With no AoE follow up, unless you're willing to bring earthquake, this would result in 522 AoE damage.

So even when they have fire shields on, Fire AoE alone would be enough to kill someone (Avrage person has around 620 HP), whereas Earth AoE, on that same shield set, wouldn't.

On top of that, if you catch anyone on a 40/40 sets (which happens alot on cap points due to the sheer amount of people you can hit), Fire AoE will completely outclass Earth AoE.

Bottom line is: When you want to cap a shrine on cap points, killing them is more important than staying alive. Whereas if you want to hold a shrine, staying alive is more important than killing them. Added to this comes the fact that killing them, would be somewhat of a guarantee you'll stay alive too, as dead people won't kill you.

Going to what shadowstactic and what you said. Capping shrines in hoh for balanced is not about your ability to pump damage, get this straight please, its very important and its your whole arguement against earth.

Lets say you get 50%half cast on all your spells(to make math eaiser) that means on avg for fire you will get 2fast cast and 2normal cast
2+.75+2+.75+1+.75+.75=9seconds, during this time the hbinfuser can heal up easily with 2-3heal parties, which means you cant kill with fire.
As I said before, if you want a team to wipe you need to shutdown their monks(mesmer, ranger job). And if the monks are shutdown, the whatever Xamount of damage from earth can kill the team.

You guys are focusing too much on 1/8 of the build and don't look at the balanced build as a whole(which shows that you lack experience playing balanced). Balanced builds have synergy, you rely on others to kill. Also you can use the other teams to help you out(no matter how experienced they are) to cap middle(you just need to understand basic capture concepts)

Also if you want to sucessfully cap shrines, you need to know when to push in, and do other things that i dont wanna talk about. (many noobs always go in at the worst time which results in a stalemate) Example is when a team wipes, theres 2 teams in altar but never caps.

Warriors do a lot of damage, if you have capped the altar and your UG can damage and shutdown all physicals that means your warriors dont need to do a half ass linebacking job, which means they can go on the offensive and have a better chance wipe the other team better than compared to a fire ele in the build.

Please read before posting seriously I have said the same thing in the posts above.

Elektraaa · Sep 02, 2010, 03:36 PM // 15:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by diabiosx

2+.75+2+.75+1+.75+.75=9seconds, during this time the hbinfuser can heal up easily with 2-3heal parties, which means you cant kill with fire.
As I said before, if you want a team to wipe you need to shutdown their monks(mesmer, ranger job). And if the monks are shutdown, the whatever Xamount of damage from earth can kill the team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by diabiosx

You guys are focusing too much on 1/8 of the build and don't look at the balanced build as a whole(which shows that you lack experience playing balanced).

With fire you could put more defense on the other character(s) because you're not having to make up for a lack of output from the ele. The argument swings both ways.

Also, for a defensive character the earth ele is pretty easy to shut down.
Both ward of stability and aura of stability can be used to defeat it. On UW for example, the monk should have no problem in putting aura of stability on the frontline at times.

If people are standing in anti-melee areas, the opposition can use rodgorts, where as the earth ele doesn't have an equivalent AOE skill.

diabiosx · Sep 02, 2010, 04:38 PM // 16:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elektraaa

With fire you could put more defense on the other character(s) because you're not having to make up for a lack of output from the ele. The argument swings both ways.
.

As I said before earth ele spikes harder. Lack of damage output is only valid in 3way capture points, if your balanced team dont know how to push.
pressure from balanced comes from poison spam and 2warriors. Most of the time in 1v1 matches people are not balled to merit rodgort's advantage.
Allow me to explain to you how earth ele is more offensive then fire in ante and forgotten.
UG completely shutdowns the 2frontlines on top shrine, the fact that 80%of their damage is gone, your entire team can go on the offensive. And the fact that the other team's hammer warrior cant KD means you gain offensive and defensive advantages. It also confuses the mesmers as to what to shutdown since there is going to be a extra layer of defense, while you dont lose much of the offense when compared to fire.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elektraaa

Also, for a defensive character the earth ele is pretty easy to shut down.
Both ward of stability and aura of stability can be used to defeat it. On UW for example, the monk should have no problem in putting aura of stability on the frontline at times.
.

Fire ele is just as easy to shut down. It is about having the extra layer of defense. in HoH if your earth is getting camped by ranger, it means your rit isnt. If your earth is getting camped by mesmer, it means your monk isnt. More layers means harder to shutdown. Again look at the build as a whole. Putting AoS on frontline means monks are going on the offensive which means they are easier targets to spike down. Thanks again for making my point that earth ele is just as good as fire offensive.(prot needs to clean blinds and put AoS, energy pressure and AoS not on infuse=gg) the fact that you can shutdown the frontline pressure at times puts more of your characters on the offense. Do you even play balanced??

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elektraaa

If people are standing in anti-melee areas, the opposition can use rodgorts, where as the earth ele doesn't have an equivalent AOE skill.

what is a antimelee area? is that even a HA term? or GW term? Dont you know that the warriors are the source of damage? if they cant hit some1, no matter how much you nuke the shit out of them with fire, you cant kill them